UK orthopedic surgeon Dr. Ahmad Malik hosted a debate between Jamie Andrews and me on whether viruses exist.
Jamie claims viruses are not real.
I say the evidence shows they are real and that they can infect others.
Jamie’s key argument: cell starvation masquerades as viral infection
Jamie says viral cultures purporting to demonstrate the presence of viruses through the cytopathic effect (CPE) — in which cells in a Petri dish appear dead or injured under a microscope — are actually just showing starvation of those cells through deprivation of nutrients (e.g., glucose) in the media or supplements feeding them (e.g., fetal bovine serum (FBS)).
This starvation can be accomplished by feeding control cells 10% FBS, enough nutrition to keep them alive, and feeding cells claimed to be virally infected only 2% FBS, not enough to stay alive, so that the latter cells become sick and die, producing CPE in cultures, Jamie notes.
He further claims virologists deliberately mischaracterize these signs of cellular starvation (cell injury and death) by saying they are due to the presence of viruses.
This is a “cheap trick” used by virologists to fool us into thinking viruses exist when in fact they do not, asserts Jamie.
Cytopathic effect (CPE) types:
1. Cell lysis: The infected cell bursts and releases viral particles.
2. Rounding and detachment: The cell becomes rounded and detaches from the surface it was attached to.
3. Syncytia formation: Infected cells fuse together to form multinucleated giant cells.
4. Vacuolation (foamy degeneration): Cells form large and/or numerous fluid-filled vacuoles (bubble-like structures) in the cytoplasm, giving the cell a "foamy" or honeycombed appearance.
5. Inclusion body formation: Viral particles or viral proteins accumulate in the cell as inclusion bodies.
6. Nuclear changes: The nucleus may become enlarged, deformed, or contain inclusion bodies.
7. Cell transformation: The virus can alter the cell's genetic material and cause it to become cancerous.
Examples:
Herpes simplex virus causes rounding and detachment of infected cells.
Influenza virus can induce syncytia formation.
Human papillomavirus can cause cervical cell transformation. Answer to Jamie’s argument: cell studies require equivalent conditions including nutrition across Petri dishes
If cell starvation is used as a false indicator of viral presence in cells, then it is scientific fraud, and Jamie is right to point it out.
It’s well acknowledged in virology, however, that to run proper controls for cell culture, Petri dishes containing cells used for a test must all have the same cell types, nutrient medium and supplement concentrations, and all other conditions, such as temperature and pH, except for one variable changed per dish compared to one or more other dishes.
For example, an experiment could have these viral culture dishes:
Dish 1 (control 1): cells only → cells expected to stay alive
Dish 2: cells + patient sample possibly including a virus → cells expected to get sick or die if virus present
Dish 3 (control 2): cells + patient sample possibly including a virus + antiviral medication (to negate the effect of any suspected virus) → cells expected to stay alive even if virus present
You can see each dish has only one variable changed compared to one other dish.
For this experiment to be valid, the cells and their nutrient medium concentrations must be identical in all dishes.
Related:
If anyone changes multiple variables in a first cell dish but not in other dishes in a test, one cannot know which of those variables, if any, is responsible for cell death or injury in the first dish.
Below are five papers that discuss the importance of maintaining consistent conditions in viral cell culture studies.
These emphasize factors like nutrient media concentration, serum consistency, pH, osmolality, and overall standardization to ensure reproducible results, prevent contamination, and support optimal virus growth without altering viral properties or experimental outcomes.
Weiskirchen S, Schröder SK, Buhl EM, Weiskirchen R. A Beginner’s Guide to Cell Culture: Practical Advice for Preventing Needless Problems. Cells. 2023;12(5):682. doi:10.3390/cells12050682. PMCID: PMC10000895.
Link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10000895/
This paper highlights how variations in nutrient media, serum batch-to-batch consistency, and conditions like passage number can dramatically affect cell health, proliferation, and experimental reproducibility in culture systems used for viral studies.
Dill V, Hoffmann B, Zimmer A, Beer M, Eschbaumer M. Influence of cell type and cell culture media on the propagation of foot-and-mouth disease virus with regard to vaccine quality. Virology Journal. 2018;15:46. doi:10.1186/s12985-018-0956-0.
Link: https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-018-0956-0
This study demonstrates that inconsistent cell types and media (e.g., serum-containing vs. animal-component-free) can lead to capsid alterations, variable viral titers, and impacts on vaccine production, stressing the need for standardized conditions in viral propagation.
Arora M. Cell Culture Media: A Review. MATER METHODS. 2013;3:175. doi:10.13070/mm.en.3.175.
Link: https://www.labome.com/method/Cell-Culture-Media-A-Review.html
The review explains the critical role of consistent media composition, including nutrients, amino acids, inorganic salts, pH buffering, and osmolality (ideally 260–320 mOSM/kg), in supporting cell growth and preventing issues in experiments, with direct implications for viral culture reliability.
Fenner F, Bachmann PA, Gibbs EPJ, Murphy FA, Studdert MJ, White DO. Cultivation and Assay of Viruses. In: Veterinary Virology. Elsevier; 2014:39–53. doi:10.1016/B978-0-12-253055-5.50007-4. PMCID: PMC7173454.
Link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7173454/
This chapter underscores the necessity of chemically defined media with consistent nutrients, serum levels (e.g., 5–10% fetal calf serum), and conditions for viral replication in cell cultures, as inconsistencies can hinder isolation, vaccine production, and diagnostic accuracy.
Arigony ALV, de Oliveira IM, Machado M, et al. The Influence of Micronutrients in Cell Culture: A Reflection on Viability and Genomic Stability. BioMed Research International. 2013;2013:597282. doi:10.1155/2013/597282.
Link: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2013/597282
This paper emphasizes that inconsistent micronutrient concentrations in media (often sourced from fetal bovine serum) can compromise cell viability, genomic stability, and experimental outcomes, which is crucial for maintaining reliable conditions in viral culture studies.
Virus isolation without cell culture
Dr. Kirk Moore — whom some call a hero — asked several questions in the livestream chat, including one (at 51:05) about whether one can isolate viruses before or without cell culture (i.e., without growing the virus in host cells).
Yes, viruses can be isolated not only through cell culture — a critical method to maintain reliable viral replication and infectivity — but also by centrifugation or filtration.
In the chat, I posted the following six references, documented examples where viruses were detected and isolated directly from clinical material before, and in several cases without, cell culture:
Kapikian AZ, Wyatt RG, Dolin R, Thornhill TS, Kalica AR, Chanock RM (1972). “Visualization by immune electron microscopy of a 27-nm particle associated with acute infectious nonbacterial gastroenteritis.” Journal of Virology 10(5):1075–1081. — Norwalk (norovirus) particles visualized directly in infectious stool filtrates by immune EM (no culture).
https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/jvi.10.5.1075-1081.1972
Feinstone SM, Kapikian AZ, Purcell RH (1973). “Hepatitis A: detection by immune electron microscopy of a virus-like antigen associated with acute illness.” Science 182(4116):1026–1028. — Hepatitis A virions visualized directly in stools from acutely ill patients using immune EM (no culture).
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.182.4116.1026
Dane DS, Cameron CH, Briggs M (1970). “Virus-like particles in serum of patients with Australia-antigen-associated hepatitis.” The Lancet 1(7649):695–698. — Complete hepatitis B “Dane particles” observed directly in patient serum; subsequent work characterized/purified these particles from blood (no culture).
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4190997/
Bishop RF, Davidson GP, Holmes IH, Ruck BJ (1973). “Virus particles in epithelial cells of duodenal mucosa from children with acute non-bacterial gastroenteritis.” The Lancet 2:1281–1283. — Rotavirus identified by EM in duodenal biopsies and feces from children (initial discovery prior to routine culture).
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrdp201783
Madeley CR, Cosgrove BP (1975). First human astrovirus reports — viral particles seen by EM directly in stool from infants with gastroenteritis (no culture at discovery). (Historical overviews and reviews citing original observations.)
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199106203242501
Wu F, Zhao S, Yu B, et al. (2020). “A new coronavirus associated with human respiratory disease in China.” Nature579:265–269. — SARS-CoV-2 genome assembled by metagenomic RNA sequencing directly from a patient’s bronchoalveolar-lavage fluid (culture performed later, but initial identification and genome came from uncultured clinical material).
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
Three more papers on virus characterization without culture
As some of the above articles are partly behind paywalls, here are three more studies with freely available full text showing virus detection directly from samples without relying on cell culture for initial discovery or identification.
Gauthier N.P.G., Nelson C., Bonsall M.B., Locher K., Charles M., MacDonald C., Krajden M., Chorlton S.D., Manges A.R. “Nanopore metagenomic sequencing for detection and characterization of SARS-CoV-2 in clinical samples.” PLOS ONE 16(11): e0259712. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0259712
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0259712
This team applied unbiased metagenomic (Nanopore) sequencing directly to RNA extracted from patients’ nasopharyngeal swabs. They assembled and characterized full SARS-CoV-2 genomes before any culture, demonstrating that intact viral RNA from patient material alone can reveal the virus and its mutations.
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Minor N.R., Ramuta M.D., Stauss M.R., Harwood O.E., Brakefield S.F., Alberts A., Vuyk W\.C., Bobholz M.J., Rosinski J.R., Wolf S., Lund M., Mussa M., Beversdorf L.J., Aliota M.T., O’Connor S.L., O’Connor D.H. “Metagenomic sequencing detects human respiratory and enteric viruses in air samples collected from congregate settings.” Scientific Reports 13:21398. doi:10.1038/s41598-023-48352-6
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-48352-6
Air samples from classrooms and daycare centers were filtered and viral nucleic acids extracted. Metagenomic sequencing revealed complete or partial genomes of several human respiratory and enteric viruses (including SARS-CoV-2 and rhinovirus). No viral culture was performed; detection and genomic “isolation” relied solely on direct particle capture and sequencing.
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Yoo H.J., Lee J.H., Kim T.H., Lee S., Cho S., Kim Y.S., et al. “Discrimination and isolation of intact SARS-CoV-2 from free viral RNA using silica magnetic beads.” Nano Convergence 8:81. doi:10.1186/s40580-021-00281-8
https://nanoconvergencejournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40580-021-00281-8
This work describes a physical method (silica-coated magnetic beads) to separate intact viral particles from free RNA in clinical or environmental samples. The authors demonstrate enrichment of whole SARS-CoV-2 virions without any propagation in cell lines — illustrating a laboratory approach to isolate virus particles directly.
Viral transmission
See this article:
Here’s Doc Malik’s post featuring the debate:
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